THE 'SAVE KERALA' INITIATIVE

THE 'SAVE KERALA' INITIATIVE

Monday, May 08, 2006

Can We Afford To Keep Quiet?



The Economic Times has opened a debate titled "Is Premji right to go against job quotas in Wipro?". Sam Pitroda, Chairman of the Knowledge Commission, has termed reservation as a "complex issue".

The medical students across the country have been at the forefront of the campaign against the policies, and i appreciate the grit and courage of these students and young doctors.



It will be wrong to make a post without making my leanings clear. My opinion in a nutshell:
1. Reservations based on caste only divides the nation further by again segregating the country, furthering the casteism.
2. Reservation should only be limited to economic support. Those who perform well at the primary and secondary levels should be provided support for higher education.
3. The focus should be on providing primary education for all. This will gradually eliminate the need for reservation as we will be able to find out the performers, and not have to spoon-feed anyone, irrespective of caste or religion. We need to support, economically, only those who can perform.
4. Reservations, in its current form, only brings down the quality of the output of the country by providing two sets of standards. Do the people who support reservation think the OBCs or SC/STs cannot perform like any one of us? We cannot afford to have non-performers in the higher education system, as it is costly both in terms of economy and quality. This is another reason why we should identify performers at the primary and secondary levels.
5. I agree, all of India's children are our own and there is nobody else to take care of them. But should we not love our children equally?



As Kerala stands eerily quiet on the issue, even the usually quick to burn-down and throw-stones student's unions have lost their balls and are waiting for their uneducated leaders to make head-or-tail of the issue and deliver a statement that brings maximum mileage, here is one way to look at the issue.



This is purely an email message and the ownership of the content lies with its original author. The pictures are also forwards, with the rights belonging to the respective newspapers.

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I think we should have job reservations in all the fields. I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this. Let's start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10 percent reservation for muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC/ST like that. Cricket rules should be modified accordingly. The boundary circle should be reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by an OBC player should be considered as a six and a six hit by a OBC player should be counted as 8 runs. An OBC player scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century.

We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl maximum speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any delivery above this speed should be made illegal.

Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters.

There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let's recruit SC/ST and OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians (that can really help the country.. )

Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country..)

Let's be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward...

Let's show the world that INDIA is a GREAT country. Let's be proud of being an INDIAN..



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How long can we keep quiet?

79 comments:

Hari said...

wonderful post !
Would you trust a person to do your eye operation, just because his father is a famous eye surgeon ?
I wouldnt. Just being born to backward community parents does not give anyone a right for reservation. This whole issue is absurd, and just an attempt by the politicians to consolidate their votebanks.

Why dont they bring in reservation in their parties first ?
Whichever politcal party who takes the initiative for reservation should look at the state in which VP singh is today, after bringing in the so called Mandal commission.

Inspite of the brave struggle by the students, if this happens, next time when someone goes to a doctor, they will have to check not only his medical degrees, but also his caste to make sure that he is a doctor by merits, and not because his forefather was from a backward community.

quills said...

I support, respect and I am proud that Azim Premji is standing firm on his beliefs and has voiced his opinion publically.

Reservation only promotes more division and hatred. Let their be reservation but for the economically challenged people in the form of scholarships and who can then realize their dreams and aspirations.

Are'nt we the ones who demand equal rights for all in most cases? Why a differnt stance when it comes to this one?

Jobs and education must be based solely on merit. It is shameful when smart students get sidelined in entrance exams to medical and engineering colleges, civil services etc, in favor of someone who may have barely passed the exam and who have no inclination either for that particular profession.

It is simply another ploy by certain politicians whose sole aim in life is to divide and rule the country. I think industries, students and all people affected should rise up in favor of Azim Premji's and the medicos' strong stance and fight once and for all to do away with casteism.

Kerala, hope you are listening as well.

A good and timely post , MC!

Sarah said...

Beautifully written post.. those with guts and gumption don't need reservation..All Indians are equal and it should be that way. Caste and creed shouldn't be the guiding force..

Mind Curry said...

@ hari - thank you hari. its nice to read your insights.

Why dont they bring in reservation in their parties first ?
excellent question..this will evoke the same response as the women's reservation, which they all made a big issue out, but in the end whimpered out of it.

@ quills - absoultely. there is no alternative to merit. just because our government and political system lacks any merit, it doesn't mean everything has to be the same.

economic support and primary education are the most important.

@ IiC - thank you. you are absolutely right. in a country, already struggling to keep up its unity in diversity, these idiots are trying to further the divide.

Anu said...

Great post!

I've always been sort of divided when it came to the reservation issue.

While I think its important that those less unfortunate [financially, mainly] ought to be provided some sort of aid, but yeah, people should be selected for jobs and such like on the basis of merit and ability ALONE.

And really, reservations serves no real purpose now-a-days, I know of several people who've taken advantage of it. It's more of a crutch, perhaps.

Kerala will change [for the better] once someone takes a stand and says "Hey, This BS is totally unacceptable!!!" So hey! Thanks.

I don't know much about politics in Kerala [next to nothing actually] but somehow I get the feeling that most Keralites rely on their emotions, rather than rationality while casting their vote. Correct if I'm wrong...

Once again, great post and the email was well... pretty damned awesome.

Arjun Ramakrishnan said...

It seems all of us have the right opinions on reservation, but the crux of the matter is we have been having reservations for different sections in all sorts of things ever since our Constitution was framed and this system has got so deep-rooted that I am afraid a serious revamping of the reservation into a system that it ought to be is going to be a herculean (read impossible) task. might sound pessimistic but will the people who enjoy the fruits of the current system of reservation ever agree for changing the system? It's like the caste system; we can only wish the reservation had not been there. I feel helpless, i want this to change but the country is divided on the issue and the whole scourge of reservation seems only to be escalating thanks to vote-bank politics and minorytism.

Inji Pennu said...

Are any of us here OBC/SC/ST here?
I dont think so. Thats why we support the agitation against reservation,since it is going to hurt our prospects.
I would readlly want to hear the side from SC/ST/OBC and what they think of this and who has enjoyed reservation. That will be fair.

It is easy to support for ideas which will benefit us.But to understand the other side,I think thats the tough part!

I dont think India's racism will suddenly erupt ONLY based on reservation for colleges. It is so disgustingly deep even now,among so-called educated families.

I really would like some stastics on how my FC people are exonomically backwards and the ratio of that with SC/ST/OBS economics.
Of course! people take advantage of loop holes in the system. Who doesnt?

Economic reservation is a real good idea.! If thats implemented, none of the Govt workers kids will get any reservation and even the NRI's kids will get reservation since it can only be accounted with the taxes you pay right?

Also,as another loophole, what would that mean,parents who work hard and make money dont get the benefits?And people who sit lazily can get benefits? That would mean wives not going for work,so that their kids would get into college?Double income means no reservation..right?

It is such a complex issue. I have enver ever heard OBC/SC/ST side of the issue.They are the one who is benefiting.What is their reason?

Mind Curry said...

@ anu - thanks anu!

you are absolutely right..when it comes to politics keralites seem to have no sign of any literacy, they just are blindly devoted to parties.

i agree with you, and emphasize, there is no substitute for meritocracy and that alone can make or break the future of india as a nation.

@ arjun - its always a pleasure to hear your insights arjun.

you are right, the caste based politics and manipulations is embedded into our system. i am sure it will change, one way or the other, some day.

@ LG - i read your comment thrice, but still really could not understand a lot of things.

i absolutely agree and i would also love to hear the views of someone who is enjoying reservations.

It is easy to support for ideas which will benefit us.
i think you got this wrong, i dont benefit from reservations nor do i support the idea.

i still believe economic aid to the performing students is the only way ahead. i cant imagine any mother not working so that they become poor and her children get reservations! and what was that about NRKs and taxes? i am sorry, but i really dont understand.

ofcourse those who enjoy the benefits of reservation wont have much to say. but recently on a debate on NDTV, one of the students who was a ST vehemently opposed reservations for two reasons: 1. he felt he could perform like any other human being and did not need special consideration 2. he wanted only monetary support for his higher education and not a seat reservation. i hope more people think like him.

silverine said...

Really good post. Reservation only condemns the backward classes to a seperate existence away from the main stream society. In Govt. offices there is a great deal of animosity towards the Reserved category colleagues and they have to live with it till retirement. What somebody said is true, we will have people asking about doctors' caste before availing of his services. And as Hari said, reservation in Political parties will be an ideal lesson for these politicians.

Shinu Mathew said...

MC,
Excellent post. In fact I wrote two articles in the same line (even the cricket team reservation almost verbatim) here;
http://blogofindia.blogspot.com/2006/04/reservation-for-obcs-in-iim.html
http://blogofindia.blogspot.com/2006/04/now-reservation-in-private-sector.html
great minds think alike, I guess :|

I am doing some research on the quota system and will come up with detail statistics very soon.
I think LG can take heart from the fact that, even OBC/SC/ST student doctors are protesting against this. They don't want to be considered inferior to anyone. If this thing become law, in future people will look down upon them believing they are beneficiaries of reservation raj and not become a doctor by their merit.
This stuff stinking. But who is going to listen? Our dear Mr. Arjun Singh is flying high these days. The sole oppposition was from Kapil Sibal and he too withered down as pressure mounted. And students? Who are they? They don't have votes and hence don't need to be taken seriously.
Long Live reservations! Forward casts down down!!!
Sorry if I sounded sarcastic, but can't help it. Read my posts to see why.

Babin said...

I guess I have a slightly moderate position on this matter. Ideally, there should not be any reservation and only meritocracy should be encouraged but ideal world is not real world..reality bytes.. especially for those who are traditionally disenfranchised, who by the way make up roughly 75% of Indian population(ie. SC+ST+OBC source: http://www.indianexpress.com/story/1991.html). It is imperative that a democratic government has to do something to proactively help out these large portion of the population.
I think there is a strong continued need for reservations in India. But I don't want to see a Tamilnadu style reservation mania all across india.I hope there will be more rational and targeted reservation system. and hopefully only a voluntary based reservation system in private colleges and the industry.

btw, check out this blog: http://jayaprakashnarayan.blogspot.com/
The views that i wanted to express was clearly articulated by Mr.Jayaprakash Narayan, a former IAS officer and a member of National Advisory council.

Dew Drops said...

anybody remember the charaya nirodhanam a couple of years back. none of the kudiyanmar of my area stopped drinking. their families sufferd more as they turnd to expensive booze.

if the reservation is aimed at progressing of our nation, there should be a mechanism to identify who deserve it.

i strongly agree with all the points mentioned by you. very well done post. impressive ..

Arjun Ramakrishnan said...

If we need to have a solution to this, first of all, the SCs/STs and other sections who enjoy the fruits of reservation as it is must agree to revamping the system which obviously is going to entail some "sacrifices" and privileges on their part. I am surprised and happy to note the comment from Shinu Mathew saying that people from SCs/STs/OBCs themselves are opposing the proposed reservation.

Ultimately we will need to build up a society where getting reservation will be seen as a weakness and loss of pride by every community concerned. Can we really empower the so-called weaker sections of today to a level where they themselves would want to come out of reservations and compete with everbody else? And can we bring about this empowerment without more reservations in first place? complex solutions I know but the issue is as complex!

Logically thinking, enjoying the fruits of reservation might be a privilege but certainly not something even SCs or STs would want to brag about. Even in my college IIT Roorkee, a lot of students have been admitted through quotas and there is always a conscious effort from their part to hide the fact they got through reservation.

Jiby said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jiby said...

hey u know wht i just read a bit earlier that the creamy layer for obc's has been raised to Rs.2.5 lakh/annum from Rs.1 lakh/annum, correct me if i am wrong...but isnt this an injustice to not only ppl who dont come in the reserved category but to economically poorer sections within the obc community!!! in these days when we talk of reservations on an economic basis which is the right way to proceed, we find the govt working in the opposite direction!!!

god save our nation from SCUM like arjun!!!

Lib-Info-Space said...

the whole idea of Reservations based on caste came to existence to bring the backward people to forefront. it was a historical and very needed thing on those days.still it is required atleast in half of the states in india.but it should end at secondary education level. there onwards, it should be the merit which should really count for higher professional courses or employment.

if some one has merit and could not go ahed, he/she should be supported with reservations with economic reservations.

now another thing. what about students getting into professional courses, with out any merit, by paying lakhs together.don't you think it should also be stopped.what I mean is the private management quoata seats in professional colleges. idid not see any one of you raising your fingers against it.

caste based reservations and provate management quoata, both should be stopped, in professional courses.

starry nights said...

Nice post, I think there should not be any difference for cast or creed. You should be given a job or an admission in school if you qualify.I am glad they are standing up for what is right.

quills said...

Good to see a lot of comments supporting economic reservation for the real needy. I only hope the government will also see sense.

@pazhangalam: I differ with you on one point. You raised the question about students getting into private professional colleges by paying a fee.I do not think you can generalize that all students who get into private courses are ones without merit.

I know that some of the best, intelligent and hardworking people who have gone the private college way only because of better quality of instituitions. I also know of toppers who had to join these colleges, as it was sometimes the only way open for them to pursue their dream course. Even after getting decently high ranks in the medical or engg tests, because of reservation by which a person with 10,023rd rank gets on the merit list, a person with 80th rank had to follow other options.

Vinod/Kakka said...

I g: To your question "Are any of us SC/ST/OBC" - I am. Based on caste, that is. Never needed reservation, so never got one.
I do believe that we need reservations, based on two criterea: Income of parents, and education level of parents.
In my class in college, we knew who came in through reservation and not, just because B.Tech CSE was a place where you bragged about your rank. There were children of Lawyers, Doctors and other high officials who came in through reservations, and who now live the same kind of life that I do, and most of the non-reservation students do.
There were 2 people from economically and educationally disadvantaged backgrounds. One is now the CTO of a medium sized California company. The other is a VP in the same company.
Their ranks were high enough though that they would not have really required reservations.

But only for education. And only upto Graduation level.

Shinu Mathew said...

@Vinod KAKA,
glad to see your comment.
For reservation, I agree, Parents Income should be a scale. but their education? Why? I know many people who have excelled in their studies and belongs to poor families where there parents do odd jobs and don't have much edu. Old times, they were interested in making a living, rather than "Wasting time" on education.
Economical reservation, irrespective of caste, creed or tribe is the only way to empower the weaker section of society. There are many people who are living way under the BPL and belongs to upper caste. They can't beg, their pride doesn't allow it; they can't work in paddy fields once they owned; they can't pinch the penny, their status will take a beating. For every "Utsavam", these donation seeking committee comes and gives a reciept of 501 RS. nothing asked. So being an upper caste man makes life hell.
I myself had wished many a times that Had my parents been OBC, I would have got a decent job at home. though now I don't have any regrets, still, I realize, there are many students who thinks the same.

Mind Curry said...

@ silverine - absolutely right..by reservations you are infact bringing down a community and thereby the nation.

@ shinu - excellent posts and comment shinu..and i am waiting to read your research analysis.

@ babin - thanks babin, yes even i had a moderate stand on the issue initially. but then when you read more about it, you realise how it simply is not justice.

who by the way make up roughly 75% of Indian population ie. SC+ST+OBC
and then the "others" should be the minority and demand rights!

jokes apart, the whole reservation system and process is messed up. i personally know well-to-do families, who easily go through medical and engg exams as they need to score only less. and half way through the course, a lot of them drop-out as they never have any real inclination towards the course. in the end the seat goes vacant. so i wonder what the whole point is.

@ dew drops - surely, for every "law" we have, our guys will always find a loophole to subvert it.

@ arjun - well said arjun..excellent thoughts.

infact, i admire something like reservation for handicapped people. and that is something many corporates and institutions do. but how can being born in a particular caste be considered as a handicap?

@ jiby - your post on the same was an excellent write-up jiby. i dont know what the government is doing, but i am trying to make myself believe there must be something good in it all - that's the only way we can remain calm and sane!

@ pazhangalam - absolutely right about economic support for those who deserve it. but to find out who deserve it, the only way is to have quality primary education for all. that will be the only way the playing field becomes level.

about professional private colleges, you are quite wrong. agree merit should be the criteria and to a certain extent private colleges always did have minimum qualifications for admission. but ofcourse, something like an entrance test was preferred and now in most quality colleges they do have entrance exams. if you ask me the reliability of these entrance exams, that is another story to tell, but then the biggest scam and most corrupted entrance tests are for government conducted tests.

the whole notion of equalising "paying high fees" to corruption or low quality is WRONG. people pay higher fees and secure seats for three reasons:
1. non-availability of other seats
2. quality
3. they can afford it

i think the most talked about private education system is the medical education. only less than 3% PG seats are provided by the government, while the rest are by private schools. now having a private medical college requires BIG investment and that obviously translates to high fees. and i know scores of excellent doctors and engineers who have studied in such schools. but i agree there may be other schools who do not have same standards, and THAT is the only area the government should focus on: ensure the standards are followed.

so if private schools are shut, then we will see india bringing out 90% less specialist doctors, 75% less engineering graduates and so on.

@ starry nights - thanks dear..i wish it was so simple.

@ quills - really appreciate the support.
you are so right..the biggest mistake we do is generalisation. fees in private schools are high only because setting up a medical/engg/management school is high, and they never receive any government aid.

@ vinod - i admire you vinod to have made such a bold and outright statement.

quality primary education for all, and then on economic support for the poor among the performers is the only solution i can see.

@ shinu - i agree..only economic criteria needs to be considered, but then when you talk about economic assessment education might be one factor to consider.

on a lighter note, that way most of our politicians will be difficult to assess: they have loads of money, behave like imbeciles and have no education!

Meesha said...

Sorry to distract from the topic:

A couple of dogs has been shot to death in Dog's own country today... Muraleedharan.. Kunjaalikutty...B. Pillai.. !!
Time for Gowriamma to retire?

You Can't FOOL peoples for EVER !

O.C. won with a record margin in puthuppally.. Sindhu Joy was a good actress though.

over all I am feeling really happy..!

barbarindian said...

Nice post, thanks for the pictures.

Brijesh said...

MC- in one of the reply u were telling "I cant imagine any mother not working so that they become poor and her children get reservations". let me narrate one incident I know. it is tought to beleive BUT IT HAPPENED in trivandrum. If one of the OBC parent had government job the kid wont be eligible for reservation for engineering/medicine entrance (annual salary of the family can't be more than 1 lakh). So in a OBC family I know, the sole aim of the parents is to make their daughter a doctor. The father used to tell "After my daughter becomes a doctor I can die peacefully". The father had a very good government job in Agricultural department.When the girl finished 10th std, the parents filed for divorce and got it when she was in 12th class. Now the records shows that the girl is with mother who doesn't have job and eligible for reservation! Even after divorce parents stayed together as if nothing happened. The girl got admit into trivandrum medical college and the parents went to register office and married again! Such things happen in Kerala. So reservation based on salary sucks!
I beleive the everything should be on merit. A student who gets admit on merit and cannot study because of financial problem should be helped by providing loans or grants.

Now in Kerala admissions to engineering/medicine reservatiosn are based on income level. If your family income is above a certian you kid is not eligible for reservation. Only government employes have proof for their income and other people can easily get a certificate that they have very less income. I have seen kids of NRI's getting admit in OBC quota. A Muslim girl who studied with me in engineering i(93-97) had a three star hotel in Eranakulam! Again my point is reservation based on income has lot of loopholes and wont be effective.

MC Great post! Also enjoyed reading the comments.

Brijesh said...

MC, Instead of clicking "Post a Comment", I accidently clicked on "Create a Link" and my comments has come as a link from your page to mine. I have deleted it. But sorry for the trouble.
Brijesh

Myna said...

Many questions and we are already divided!!!

* Reservation is needed or not?

* If needed, then on what basis: income, caste, education level of parents or a combination of some or all? Will we be able to enforce the measures? Can we fix the loop holes?

* If not, are we in a position to tell that everybody in India are equal in all respects and so a competition exam should be the only criteria?

* What does merit mean? Is that strictly a number? How do we assess that?

* Isn't there a bit of discrimination in all fields? Can we say that people of India have come to a stage where all of them think big and don't discriminate others on the basis of caste, money, education etc? I have seen it equally among old and new. Even among educated.

I am confused. I feel that there is a right in each comment I have seen here and in various other blogs where I could see the same issue as the subject. But I couldn't see a perfect solution anywhere.

I know families in my village who does not allow people from a particular caste into their own homes. I know cases where some people from a certain caste are not allowed to do a particular job. The problem is in who is making the decisions? For them and others, it is those who have the power. And what is power? It could be caste, money, education. Others are just rejected. Democracy tries to correct a mistake with, even now I am not sure, probably another mistake? But then what is the solution? Reject that it does not exist? That would not be fair.

I know about institutions controlled by people from the so called higher caste taking all measures not to allow someone from a rank down, whatever be the criteria, to get into the system.

We think high, talk big things. But deep in there, in our villages, towns, the disgust towards the poor is still there.

There are some things I know for sure. From my life.

That there are people out there who still survives on less than $1/2/3 per day. That caste system is still strong and it has an effect on people, their growth, admission to jobs etc. That reservation can help people.

Now let me see what comments are there and I'll probably come back to give some real life examples.

Vazhipokkan said...

This is not on the present post...
Am addressing those Ommen Chandy?UDF fans over here(most of you).

See the verdict ...he is out of power, that too with a huge margin...

I am so happy that it happened like that...

Mind Curry said...

@ jasmin - yes, a couple of dogs shot to death and a couple of more brought to life. the saga goes on..

@ barbarindian - thank you. pictures are not mine though.

@ brijesh - that sounds so shameless and pathetic..i mean, what kind of a doctor will that person become having been forced into it. anyway i hope this is only an odd incident and not one that happens commonly.

i think you need to delete the post permanently from your blog before the link will disappear. no issues anyway.

@ myna - absolutely, it is ofcourse too complicated because all these casteist and religious divide is so inbuilt into our societies. we are stuck up on such things as a nation.

the one thing i really really admire in west is the equality. whether you are a laborer, sewage cleaner or ceo you enjoy a great deal of equality. cant even imagine anything of that sort in india. its shameful.

@ vazhipokkan - thanks bro..we did see the news.

what can i say? i feel sad for kerala that it lost the leadership of such a great CM.

i sincerely hope the new LDF government will continue the developmental policies OC created and take Kerala forward instead of rewinding it back another 5 years.

there is so much pressure for employment and development in Kerala today that it is difficult for the new government not to pursue development. so let us hope for the best.

like OC said today, the reforms he has made are such that it cannot be easily rewound.

cheers to OC for winning in his constituency. good luck for the new government - i hope its some lesser devil that becomes the CM in the end, and not thugs like pinarayi or clowns like panniyan.

all said, i hope the people watch whats happening in the next 5 years and learn from it. myself, i really really hope they do only good.

Vinod/Kakka said...

Shinu,
The only reason why I had parents education level in there was because a person whose parents are both educated, working as NGOs has atleast a equal shot at education when compared to a not very educated rich NRI. Not trying to be stereotypical, but I think both these parameters have an equal bearing.

venus said...

Reservation is the result of dirty politics. political parties are still carrying on British thumb of rule: "Divide and Conquer"!

We have been independent for over 50 years now, and if we still need to have reservation, it's a shame! Initially I can understand that our caste system did injustice to the backward classes, but now 2 generations have passed with the benefits of reservation, and if still they don't want to come to the mainstream, there is something wrong. I suport economic support, give them money, pay their tuitions, provide them free college education, but let them compete with the mainstream. Reservation is a grave injustice to the mainstream people. And I am very proud that people are speaking up now, they are no more kep quite and let them run country type any more. RESERVATIONS HAS TO GO, Dot.

Myna said...

Read this insightful article from a former IAS officer, Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan

Spread the word about the project Lok Satta and read about the promising events.

At the same time, folks who believe that money is the solution to social injustice, read about this reflection of our society.

Being emotional won't bring social justice. It needs careful planning and execution. And please don't brag on numbers; especially the ranks in exams .

charlie said...

I only hope that I would not be unfortunate enough ever to seek the services of doctors who are joining these protests. They are the most selfish lot!

Lib-Info-Space said...

can any one list out the SOCALLED UDF's policies to be continued by LDF. it will be helpful to the new ministers to follow.

Mind Curry said...

@ vinod - i didnt really understand what you meant about NGO parents and NRIs. you seem to have a lot of deep understanding about a lot of things and i really appreciate seeing the other side. i guess thats the whole point of blogging about these topics.

@ venus - exactly..divide and rule..that is the whole point..and we see that same principle being followed across the board whether its religion, caste, politics etc. and sadly peoples emotions can really be worked up when you base your selling point on these factors.

@ myna - i did read the article by jpn as well. and its very strong and well written. but as i told him, how can social justice be given to one section of society by denying justice to another section? i dont think most of us believe in the "rank" craze, its just that the system is such that we follow numbers for ranking; and there are not enough seats to give admission to all the people above a certain pass limit. such a system, where theres no rank, but only a pass limit cannot be obviously used in a competitive exam. and thats why even the civil service has a ranking.

the very fact that one talks about social justice by talking about castes and divisions beats the purpose. why do we see ourselves as different castes at all? cant we then see it as economically settled and unsettled? that will bring more justice!

@ charlie - i also hope your wish comes true. calling the doctors as selfish is a selfish statement by itself. so are the people who demand reservations selfish too? its easy to make sensitive statements.

@ pazhangalam - welcome back :)
only for you, the policies are listed and talked about in our previous posts here. but if its for any "new minister", i dont know if they will be able to understand much.

Myna said...

MC:
We cannot resolve this problem without taking into consideration of the FACT that there is and was a caste system and that is and was contributing to the division of people on financial basis as well.

If we don't take this truth into consideration, there will never be a solution.

And if we do take it, then the solution is a only a gradual change that can only result as part of change in the roots and for that one of the solution is what is written by jpn as it is based on the same FACTS.

I talked about numbers because there was a concern that I saw in this discussion that quality is compromised as the 10000th rank person is inducted into the system. QUALITY? SUPERIORITY COMPLEX BASED ON A NUMBER? I can't resist the temptation to laugh.

I have an objective here and that is to ensure equal opportunities for everybody. But that cannot be achieved overnight. And it will need a helping hand to some section of society at some points of time. I don't know whether we will still call it reservation. Hopefully by that time the social inequalities, at least as part of this caste system, are no more there.

Mind Curry said...

@ myna - i absolutely agree that every single indian has to have equal opportunities. but why does it have to be based on caste if its only about poor, social justice and opportunity? why cant it be based on economic status? why cant the government work towards providing quality primary education for all, why cant they allocate a fund for the so called poor students and why cant they support the students who perform well for higher education? that will have more union and consensus, than this divisive policy based on caste.

and dont tell me its because economic status based empowerment will have corruption. corruption is there in all possible avenues and its there in the caste based reservation system as well.

i oppose reservations for two reasons:

1. it lowers the quality bar of the nation. if one person needs to score 90 on 100 and the other only needs to score 70 on 100 for the same position, i feel its unfair.

2. the reservation based on castes will permanently divide the country. we couldnt achieve equality in 50 plus years, because we are still identifying people based on castes! every single form in the nation asks you your caste and subcaste. why? with such policy the division will remain forever.

about the ranking again, we do not have 1 billion jobs or educational seats in india. if we did we could do away with a ranking. i absolutely agree a person who scores the 10,000th rank may be a smarter candidate than the 1st rank person in a particular exam, but the sad fact is that we might have only 100 seats.

clash said...

http://savekerala.blogspot.com/2006/01/vote-now.html

My comment:
Bogus of the century! An axis of the ever “American ass licking” stooges and their mesmerized phony followers will decimate this country and our state to a cauldron of death with neo liberal policies. When you fight it on the street for money back from your own salary account as people in Argentina did after a slow down in their economy, stooges will understand. A cartoon Character like “oomen” winning all the notes is not very surprising here. It’s a Christian conspiracy… I will call it..

@ clash - thats a very strong statement to say the least. nonetheless, your being a left supporter (as per your blog) its not surprising. sadly the facts are against you and i am sure sooner or later more people will see it.

I hope You saw it!! you really did right??

clash said...

Very Looney Post! The upper middle class mediocrity always spews incoherent words and that shows in almost all the comments here. Making reservations in the cricket field and things so forth. Those kind of mediocrity is indispensable in blog-dom because hardly any blogs or comments will be written by a dalit or he would have been tortured his whole existence on this planet, that it is the most disgusting thing ever to reveal- he is a Dalit.
Eons of terrible sufferings has almost waxed their mouth to shout out their needs. If they do we have our culture-vultures, who predominantly belong to this middle class and OBC's who have the right to chop of their arms and squeeze their eyes even stone them to death.
Claims will be; not all these occur in our "shining India". Its just coz, the so-called fourth estate or media comprehensively falters at capturing the essence of Indian life. They have the sensex sky rocketing and wardrobe malfunction!

Its has been only 50 years of "reservations". Does it count for 1000's of years oppression? If some one is loosing out his precious seat due to reservation, just keep in mind, he has not paid his due for all those oppression and repression, which is continuing.

I dint see all these Brouhaha when a dalit was stoned in haryana? I pity these eye-glistened neo-rich in India. Phew!!

Mind Curry said...

@ clash - thanks for the comments, i must say you write well.

regarding your first comment, i still maintain that "sooner or later, people will realise" what a good CM OC was. his massive victory in his constituency reflected his great personality. why UDF lost has many reasons, but in the end its just sad that the great man did not become CM for another 5 years. it is kerala's loss.

about your second comment, i always maintain that there is no point making inflammatory or sensitive statements just for the heck of it. so if you say we use incoherent words here, you should read it again.

that apart, i really appreciate your thoughts and comments.

you talked about dalits and obc's. they still exist as a caste because of people (who support reservations) not letting them come above it by making systems based on caste. you give reservations, you are just making that system stronger.

there are poor people in every community. why are you not "sensitive" about them?

why cannot reservation be based on economical status? that will avoid using the word dalits, SC, ST and so on, which i find so discriminatory.

Its has been only 50 years of "reservations". Does it count for 1000's of years oppression?
you can have 1000 years of reservations, but even then it will only make further division in India, with stronger caste based systems.

I dint see all these Brouhaha when a dalit was stoned in haryana?
you dont see "brouhaha" for plenty other things in India, irrespective of it being about a dalit, hindu, brahmin, christian, muslim, jain or whatever.

"our plight is bad, so make everyone suffer." "i am not earning, so nobody else should earn" " i dont have a job, so nobody needs to have a job"
such an attitude is not going to get us anywhere, and sadly thats exactly where kerala is stuck. we have to begin somewhere. someone has to earn, someone has to get employed, someone has to create jobs before all the good things can trickle to the poor.

as for comparing to cricket, the reservation system is similar. we just cannot have two standards simply because its absurd.

once again, economic support for the poor who perform well, irrespective of castes, is fine. but reservation in higher education and private companies and all such things will only bring down the nation.

It’s a Christian conspiracy…
its people like you and statements like these that really create trouble in india. and thats exactly why you should not harp about castes. for the record, i have not ever thought myself as a christian or middle class person, but always as an indian. its shameful of you to bring in such unwanted divisions. injecting venom so subtly is one character i hate in people.

clash said...

"you talked about dalits and obc's. they still exist as a caste because of people (who support reservations) not letting them come above it by making systems based on caste. you give reservations, you are just making that system stronger" - The middle class milieu forces the mass to bitch about anyone and every one. when a dalit prosper, they bitch,he gathered all those through reservation, They forget that their grand parents "adima" he or his father was. And about a doctor who is from reserved category and who is from the other, I don’t think there will be much difference between a doc who studies in loony self financing college and a dalit who studies in a govt college.One end is the power of the money and the other end is the power of reservation. If all of you here still beleive that it was the "olden times" when dalits used to get oppressed, there is a book by Saran Kumar Limbale a Dalit professor from Maharastara Called "Akarmaasi" (Mathrubhumi weekly had carried it in the form of a novel, some time Back). Please go through it.

“But even then it will only make further division in India, with stronger caste based systems.” – While writing this, you are constricting yourself to kerala. When you consider the whole of India, I do not think the plight of Dalits have changed much from what they 50 years ago. Some of them excelled and they just forgot their past like rest of the human beings. That’s the cornerstone of any Dalit story. They are still being beaten up, uppercaste people molest dalit women and innumerable Fatherless children GRAZE this huge nation without an address. We forget/not allowed to see it, they subside in to that portion of history which everyone wants to forget. If you remember, Supreme court brought a Notice telling that, No child should carry his mother’s caste. It was tight slap on many Dalits and adivasis across India, coz most of them still don’t know who their father is…. Nobody voiced out anything at that point. It is simply because They don’t have a voice.

Now, who should hold the authority to decide the percentage of reservation? Definitely not the government at the helm. A regulatory authority should be there monitoring this and things should be done for the welfare of the downtrodden and correct methods have to be devised. Its not a difficult task, But the eye-glistened Neo rich in India, doesn’t have the time for all this. They are bothered about them rather they do not know what happens in reality. Oh! No wonder, all of them believe in the trickle down theory.

Chrisitan Conspiracy : Definitely it’s a religion which has killed the maximum no: of human beings in the name of religion and conquest. I wonder where Christ is... It’s high time he realize and do something... to cleanse up!

Dhanya said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dhanya said...

Just a good read for all who ridiculed the reservation system...

National geographic
Dalit Voice

And mind curry, why not expand your dimensions to the world? why only india? when you think as a homo sapien, only the colour of the skin changes with nations, not the colour of the blood!
"lokame tharavadu" ennanallo!

quills said...

@clash and Dhanya: Like MC said, this blog welcomes perspectives from all its readers.

The content is mainly limited to Kerala and therefore the issues discussed are those that have in some way affected or will affect the state. I admire MC for trying to promote positive thoughts about development, women's rights, education and such important topics through well meaning articles and inviting comments from fellow Keralites and others who can understand and appreciate an honest man's effort to bring about some positive change.

I am sure MC will say this better, but as a supporter of this initiative, I feel I have to firmly express my disappointment in your comments whereby you are trying to do the same thing that some detestable politicians do..mix religion with day to day issues and pass inflammatory statements.

This blog in no way ever represented any particular religion. I hope you can appreciate that, and restrain from passing comments that just serves to poison minds further.

clash said...

I am sorry that i had write abt religion here.. It was just a retort to MC's comment and its never realted to this issue.

Elections, yes, i did call it a christian conspiracy, coz all religions and castes vie for their share of power. That fact is indispensable!!

I am not trying to mislead anyone!

Mind Curry said...

@ clash and dhanya -

when a dalit prosper, they bitch,he gathered all those through reservation
thats exactly what i am saying..by caste based reservations, we are only going to make the divide wider.

i dont want to see another person as a dalit or SC or anything..i can see them as less fortunate or poor. and an economic status based reservation will bring more acceptance, unity and action. i dont know why you miss this point and keep talking about middle class or conspiracies.

dhanya, thank you for the links. it was good read. but i stick to my point. why are we dividing ourselves based on caste and religion? if its about the poorest of our country, then lets give the benefits to the poor, not to a particular caste.


@ quills - thank you so much. you have spoken my mind. it is really disappointing when you hear such snideful remarks and attacks based on religion and caste.

@ clash -
It was just a retort to MC's comment
i can take sensible comments, even if its against my beliefs and understanding, and i appreciate them too. but just for retort dont just hurl anything that comes to your mind.

Elections, yes, i did call it a christian conspiracy, coz all religions and castes vie for their share of power. That fact is indispensable!!
if all religions and castes vie for it why are you referring to a single religion? and that too here, where we are least bothered about such divisions.

all said, its time for another post :) thank you all. let the cabinet take a decision that is most sensible and justified.

Myna said...

The following lines from this article of rediff, about our CM to be, caught my attention today.

"Many agree he has neither the intellect of E M S Namboodiripad nor the charisma of A K Gopalan nor the charm of E K Nayanar, the late towering Marxists in Kerala. Unlike them, VS, as Achuthanandan is popularly called, did not hail from upper caste and feudal families. Hailing from the so-called backward Ezhava (toddytapper) community, he was never considered chief ministerial material.

That discrimination against him,
and inner politics played out smartly by his rival in the party -- CPI-M state secretary Pinarayi Vijayan -- ensured that VS did not even get a seat to contest the 2006 poll."

Leaving that aside and giving only the significance it deserves, coming back to the discussion (of course, in a language I know and reflects me).

MC: As long as caste based discrimination exists in our society, reservation based purely on financial grounds, even if we can enforce it, can bring only a partial solution. The main problem will still exist and you have not addressed it so far in a practical way. Apart from the ideal world where there is no caste system, which I cannot visualize as long as we continue to seek alliances from the same caste or religion in all fronts, the solution is far from being implemented.

I know where and all I can make a difference. That's when I treat others with respect irrespective of their caste/religion/colour. That's when I measure their thoughts based on the human beings they are. That's when I can preach the same to my daughter. That's when I would not mind her marrying to somebody she loves irrespective of borders.

Dear friends, I respect your stands and your courage to stand by it. You have expressed it in your own language. It talks a lot about your character. Whether we agree or disagree on this subject, I see a glimpse of hope. That is more than enough for now.

Tony said...

Strong opinions.
I respect the reason reservation was introduced for.
To establish a level playing field.
But that was for a stipulated period.
To perpetuate this, and introduce it at every level of education and then into employment, is vote-bank politics.
This will ruin the capabilities and efficiencies of nextgen India.
And it is not that the ruling party does not realise this.

However, I feel economic reservation is necessary.
The reasons for it might not be obvious in Kerala.
But in several other states, oppression persists.
Please note though, that economic reservation is necessary today thanks to the fact that progressive 5 Year Plans have failed to do anything for the economically backward.
(Now of course, if you're poor, cold and hungry in TN, you can get a TV.)

On whether we can afford to keep quiet, we can't.
And across the world, it has been students who have led movements for change.
But then again, student union leaders have the same motivations as the NDA.

The cycle, is vicious.

Mind Curry said...

@ myna - it comes as no surprise that the left organisation who project themselves as socialists and pro-poor have such ingrained casteist biases.

yes we all know deep within that ultimately only equality can take the nation forward. i am for reservations and support to the poor - but irrespective of the caste and only economic support. anything else will affect India as a nation.

Whether we agree or disagree on this subject, I see a glimpse of hope. That is more than enough for now.
absolutely..and to that extent i am happy this blog has come to life.

@ tony - very valid points. i dont think any of our youth and sensible people are against the poor or unfortunate ones. we all want indians to have equality and a great future. but it cannot just be at the cost of injustice to someone else, or by bringing down the country as a whole - that just does not make sense.

i am really happy to read your insightful notes.

Brijesh said...

I dont belong to this group but was sad to find that in such a good post caste/religion is brought into picture. This is typical of what is happening in Kerala. If one tries to express his/her views in open and some people doesn't like it they make all kind of absurb allegation to shut that person down. I have read most of the post by MC and team. I have posted my comments also in this blog. Till the time "Clash" wrote I never understood MC was a Christian. I went back and read all his post. I couldnt find from any of his post from which I can identify him as a christian. He supported Omman Chandy. Is it the reason for branding him as spreading Christian conspiracy? If a "saghavu" supports VS will he be branded as Ezhava conspirator?.

Clash- people like you are infact taking Kerala backward.

I have penned my thoughts on reservation on my blog from a different angle.

http://sonyvellayani.blogspot.com/2006/05/reservation-and-capitation-fees-two.html

MC and team- Continue the great work. The harsh and critique comments you get are testimony of the great work you people are doing.

Mind Curry said...

@ brijesh - i really loved your comment and it made me feel a lot better.

you are right..we are bound to disagree and have plenty of differences in our thinking and beliefs. but that doesnt mean we just hit below the belt or abuse eachother. coloring eachother based on religion and personal attacks makes the attempts of this blog so futile.

i sincerely appreciate your broadminded nature and open approach. thank you for the encouragement brijesh.

Shinu Mathew said...

To Brijesh & MC,
I inadvertently wandered into the blog of Clash, where I scribbled something against the reservations. I was expressing an opposite view to his, and bang! comes a barrage of abuse and personal attack on me. Right from my choice of books to my integrity. They see a christian conspiracy in this anti-reservation imbroglio. Our mutual blog friend, Immigrant In Canada, has alos came there and he/she too got a mouthful.
It reflects their intolerance towards the opposition, and how much they are obsessed with this begging bowl called reservation (the last expression is taken from Immigrant's comments).
No point when the opposite number is frivolous, and personally attacking over a point that is so contentious and should be talked in mild manner.
As brijesh pointed out, those "looney" mindsets can brag about their rights in their close-knit group but but on such a broader forum as this one, they will be drowned. Good work MC.
Now it's time for the new post. I think this has been going on for eons :)

Myna said...

I have learned that a smooth sea won't make good sailors. But the rules of the game state that the sailor who comes first gets the trophy. They are the ones who can go to the next stage. Truth is that the sea is big and the sailors start from different points. They travel through different routes. Used as well as less traversed. They use ships, yachts, canoes, rafts, mackinaws. They face turbulence, heavy winds, sharks, whales, icebergs, pirates, deaths and what not. On the way they find
new islands, catch rare fish, talk to sun and moon. They learn, they complain, they curse, they fight, they die. They stop to offer prayers. They stop to give a helping hand. They continue the journey. Journey of life.

AJITH said...

Great post with appropriate graphics..Did you read PMK's latest demands ?
1)Creamy layer should not be excluded
2)Reservations should not be phased out
3)They want more than 27 % .

God save us !!!!

Koshika said...

Hello everyone...

I have been seeing and readin abt this anti reservation protests for a long time, but i certainly wonder why is the media not showin the other side of the issue..why r ppl who support reservation not shown on TV or anywhere in the newspapers...If govt is takin such a big step, there mst be a reason, a mass of those opressed people behind it.
The behaviour that has been aquired by general category towards SC/ST/OBCs has certainly led me to support the reservation. But i completly agree with the option of removing the creamy layer from the Quota & increasing the seats.
India is a big democracy & people of diffrent region, religion or caste certainly have affection for ech other, but when it comes to competetion, their attitude towards other caste people is ABHOR...so...RESERVATION IS NEEDED....BIGTIME..

Koshika

ASHWIN said...

Dear M.C

Reference to below message. At the outset, let me clarify that below is
just an idiotic news which was created by some stupid person. As you know
only media created this much gossip and signifance, how come then they are
not allowed to report this important news. The real news is that due to
this strike one lady died bcos of lack of medical care.

Suppose, if the news is correct then also no need to worry. There are
thousands of people dying each year in India bcos of starvation. Is
anybody concerned about that or sending any chain mails to voice, then why for
this case..???

It took almost one week for me to prepare this article. I crave your
indulgence and patience to read and understand this email. I am a
NRI , at any cost this reservation will not benefit me or my family but as
an Indian we should raise our concern for the needy.

I am not an admirer of former Prime Minister V.P.Singh because I feel
he was responsible for reviving caste feelings in India. He cunningly played
vote bank politics but acted as if he was the saviour of the underprivileged. But
I fully agree with what he said about Indian media; that Indian media
today has absolutely no idea about what real India is. This is exactly what
award winning director Girish Kasaravally also told; that Indian media has
become not just urban centric but metro centric! That is why this over
emphasis on Sensex, GDP, FII, FDI etc.

Actually how many percent of Indians are really concerned about the
Sensex? Only those who have the money to invest in the stock market. But
television channels and newspapers talk about it as if it was the heart beat of
India.The truth is, if you want to hear the real heart beat of India, you
have to go elsewhere.

It may sound clichéd, but majority of Indians do not think about Sensex,
they do not discuss Sensex over a cup of tea or breakfast in the morning.
The fact is, a lot of Indians do not even have proper breakfast every morning.
They only think about from where the next meal is going to come, and Sensex
or FII or FDI.

Let me also narrate what I saw. I had actually seen many villages of Kerala
and they were not the typical Indian villages. I saw the real Indian village
for the first time in Tamil Nadu. Recently on a visit to a small village in Chengalpattu
district, I saw how different the lives of 'real' India is, and how deprived they are.
A family of six was sitting leisurely under the shade of a huge tree on the side of the
state highway. An elderly lady in the group was ill. As there was no hospital in the village,
they were waiting for a bus to come so that they could take her to the nearest town. As she was
suffering from just a mild fever, they could afford to wait for the bus. But
what if she were in a serious condition? They said then, they would rush to
the town in their bullock cart. 28 year old Selva in the group did not go
to school after 4th standard because there was no high school in his
village but his cousin, a girl, cycles to the nearby village and studies in
Plus 1. That was only because the state government provided her with a
bicycle and gave her text books and note books free.

If this is the pathetic condition of a village in Tamil Nadu, a state that
is said to be far more developed than many other northern states in India,
what will be the condition of those villages?
I shudder to think. The villagers also told me that their occupation was agriculture but
they depended solely on the rains. "Look at out fields.They are all dry. Only when it starts
raining, we can till. We have no other source of water except rains."

Government spending much money to raise doctors, engineers but how many of
them will serve the nation. After geting the degree, they are looking for a
chance in US,CANADA,UK, Australia etc. How many of them willing to serve in
those villages. But if reservation being given to those, atleast there will
be small clinic in remote villages.


Let us look at the merit of the doctors working in the most prestigious
hospitals of the country. If the Indian doctors and medical specialists are
so meritorious than why is that most of the VVIPs run away to foreign
countries at the simplest of illnesses. Even the former Prime Minister Atal
Bihari Vajpayee, an ardent supporter of Swadeshi had to call an NRI
orthopedic surgeon for his knee operation. Further, is it not logical to
evaluate the merit of the professionals passing out from the various private
universities, engineering, medical and management colleges where a seat can
be bought for a few lakh rupees? There is no reservation in sports even then
a nation of over a billion has not been able to produce a single individual gold medalist
in Olympics. Similarly is it really a case of meritocracy that all the
progenies of film stars are given a chance to act and sing in the film
industry even though they do not have any experience? Are these cases of
merit or pedigree reservation? The answer is self-evident, as most of them
have been one-film wonders. But the fact remains that most of them could
reach there just because of their pedigree.

I EMPHASIZE THAT THIS RESERVATION IS REALLY REQUIRED FOR THE
NEEDY (from this caste )AND I AM 100% CONFIDENT THAT THIS GOVERNMENT
WILL IMPLEMENT THAT WHATEVER THE OBSTACLE IS. I REQUEST YOU TO
THINK LOGICALLY, RATIONALLY AND COME TO A CONCLUSION.


Ashwin

ashwin said...
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ashwin said...
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ashwin said...
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Mind Curry said...

@ brijesh - i did see your comments at clash's post. sometimes people fail to see any other point than their own. and as you rightly said oppose any other view at any cost.

its similar to amir khan telling his view and suddenly our "big brothers" crying war against him! such brainless intolerant scoundrels is what really keeps india so backward.

@ myna - very nice.

@ ajith - its so convoluted.gods? i hope so :) more than 27%. and does anyone think 50 years later anyone is going to reduce this quota? even right now the rich and famous get most of these "reserved" seats, and its going to be the same 50 years later too.

@ koshika - exactly..so we are all concerned about the poor right? so why are we insisting on CASTE based reservations? this is one question nobody is answering. if your objective is poor, why have a caste based system? because only the castes make up the vote-bank?

@ ashwin - whoa brother..that was some commenting..it will be great if you could summarise what you want to say.

That was only because the state government provided her with a
bicycle and gave her text books and note books free.

wonderful..i hope the government does such things for ALL the poor..and that is the only thing needed. NOT DIVIDE people on the basis of caste in the pretext of "upliftment" and thereby muster the votes.

so what if the sensex booms? so what if there are people making money? its because they struggle and work hard too.

they are looking for a
chance in US,CANADA,UK, Australia etc.

"sounds" very correct. but do you have any idea how many of the people who have graduated through reservations are in those countries? so it has nothing to do with rich or poor or any damn caste. given the chance we all look for better opportunities.

anyway its good to have your thoughts here..we can only hope in the end, whats best for the nation is implemented.

i am deleting the other three comments as it is more about religion than reservations.

ashwin said...

Dear M.C.

see here u have only replied to two points...

i wud have liked you to counter reply on all the points..

my whole idea of writing this msg was on title- "CAN WE AFFORD TO KEEP QUIET??" of DOGS OWN COUNTRY.

when u dont know about politics and social realities of indian life, u should not have started this topic in the first place...
let the indian govt decide what best is suited for this country, becos we have elected them to do the best...i think man mohan singh govt has best interest for all the sections of the indian society...unlike the bjp govt. who proclaimed india shining ....if india was really shining, why they lost election..
becos they got too carried away..and did not understand the realities of india...

do you know how many states in india is inflicted by maoist groups.. u should ask why???do
research and reply..dont just tell
me to crush them....easy solution..

did u know a criminal/mafia like veerappan could not be caught for so many years..why???dont tell me it was politics....yes it may be politics ....but why such politics..

why all the national news paper pass sarcastic comments on leaders like laloo, mulayam, mayawati, and are blamed for all the ills of indian societies.....whyy??

becos india is still a under developed country...and this(reservation) is not one of the issues, which is very important. we have more than 25% of population who is living below poverty line, we have millions of women killed before they are born, why there are so many childrens living on the streets...why dont u write blog and ask the same question...CAN WE AFFORD TO KEEP QUIET(((then it sound interesting)))..i feel sad for the we educated section of indian society...becos we have failed india...we dont know the exact problems faced by our leaders to take india out of the religious set up to modern democratic life.. but just for fun we start such topic which is not very relevant and only effects few nos of population of india..

first let us discuss about the topics which effects the majority of indian lifes, then u can start a blog and ask this same question about reservation...i wud appreciate...

i can write, write - with lot of examples to prove my point, but will be irrelevant as you look life from one side(your side) not as a whole.. becos we do not know our history, our social problems, if u say caste is not important aspect of indian life, it may sound very secular...but 90% of the people still live in this system....and it is difficult to move out of this system in rural set up...and will take another 50-60 years ...that is why this govt want people of every caste to get their share in the growth of the county...(in brief)

ashwin said...

about myself...i grew up in mumbai..very cosmopolitan city..i only came to know about my caste...when it was time of marriage (28 years of age)...my parents insisted, i have less choice when it comes to girl..only from this caste/language...i thought i as indian.. it was sad...but i believe life is this way in case of most of us..who's in this blog..
so we cannot ignore this fact...just a point..to prove our our social set up is...we have long way to go to become secular...in every aspect of life..we chose to be secular when it suit us...we humanbeing are selfish...

Mind Curry said...

@ ashwin - i have to congratulate you on two things: your sense of passion about india as a nation and your concern for all the sections of society. i am glad about it. i mean it very sincerely.

i had replied to only two of the points which i thought were relevant.

i admit i am not knowledgeable about everything in india and its social circumstances. as much as this blog is for awareness and change, it will be a learning process for all of us.

agreed, in india there is a stark contrast between rich and poor. mumbai or delhi doesnt reflect the rest of india. there are villages without medical care. a lot of us know these things and other similar sad contrasting realities of india. and it was good to read about it again. but what is the solution? will just sitting and crying over it help any one? wil just blaming the sensex, IT industry and the more fortunate ones help? NO it wont.that is similar to the leftists ideology. it sounds good, but doesnt offer a solution.

such ideology survives by creating resent in peoples mind. in kerala, people dont want to work, but yet they talk about equality and employment and rights. industries are shot down saying its only for the rich! and the extremes of it is why you have naxals and criminals. if you dont have it, dont let others have it..or steal it..or destroy everyone else.

most of the answers to your own questions lie within your comment itself.

first let us discuss about the topics which effects the majority of indian lifes, then u can start a blog and ask this same question about reservation...i wud appreciate...
very well said..so the majority of india is poor. so why harp on reservations. you have asked that question yourself. let us see indians as less fortunate and more fortunate ones, not as all those stupid castes. i ask this again to those who support reservations: isnt the poor of all castes the same? or is only the poor of one caste special? if not why not avoid caste system, provide for all the poor equally?

yes caste system has been there for many years and it is not easy to wipe out, especially in rural areas where people are uneducated. but why are even educated people sticking on to the system? as long as we continue policies based on caste, the system will only get stronger.

the only solution i can think of is for the government to focus on primary education for all, and then supporting the good students with economic support.

its not that i am some expert or a great thinker, but these are just thoughts coming after analysing whatever i read.

ashwin said...

my friend..probably...u did not understand what i meant..am not here in for support or anti- reservation....

like in life ...we have priorities..

first..we human need basics necessaties of life...then we go for developments....like it has happened in european countries

i asked ....is this blog necessary with the heading goes...

CAN WE AFFORD TO KEEP QUEIT..

THAT IRKS ME....

WHY u DIDN'T START A BLOG...."CAN WE AFFORD TO KEEP QUEIT....when millions of girl child killed in mothers womb.. before she is born...

can we afford to keep queit when lacs of childrens are living on the street...

why did u keep queit when u were aware that more than 25% of people are living below poverty line..

u started a blog ...on can we keep queit ....on the topic of reservation...which probably will only have effect on few people...but it has been hyped as it is causing a grave danger on national security...

isnt it hypocrasy...

and again ur ignorance...in kerala we dont have naxalism..for ur info...becos our great left leaders almost bought social equality in kerala.. and in kerala every individual has rights ...

if u think oomen chandy was good cm, why did he lose election...u mean to say the people of kerala are fools...oomen chandy govt was controlled by mafias....who probably had more vested interest than the state interest...i wont say left are not corrupt ...but the percentage differs and that does make a difference...

see what had left done to west bengal....i may not say that they have solution to all the problems..but when u choose bad and worst...u have the choice to choose the bad..

Secret behind CPM’s successive wins may lie in rural cold storage

MANINI CHATTERJEE
Posted online: Saturday, May 06, 2006 at 0000 hrs Print Email
Rural prosperity is visible, so what should worry CPM? Divide between neo-rich, landless labour—and too much party everywhere

PATUL VILLAGE (HOOGHLY DISTRICT), MAY 5: As twilight begins to fall, a group of ten young men begin to wrap up—literally—a day’s hard work. It is the first harvesting season of the year and they are tying up sheaves of ripened paddy on the fields that belong to Sukur Ali, the local landlord. No, they tell us, they don’t know anything about the politics of this area because they have come from a far-off village in Sundarbans (where they voted for the CPI(M)) before their departure. Twice a year, they come as hired labourers to harvest Ali’s crop.

As they return to their work, Debashis Ray walks down the brick-paved road that skirts through the fields towards his home in Patul village looming in the far horizon. He also belongs to a family of ‘‘khet majoor’’ (landless agricultural labour) as do, he claims, over 70 per cent of the villagers. But he would rather not do the backbreaking work of harvesting another man’s field for Rs 50 per day plus ‘tiffin.’

He prefers his work as an icecream vendor. He gets a commission of Rs 120 if he sells icecreams worth Rs 300, and on a hot summer day, can make around Rs 100 a day. The price of the ice lollies range from Rs 1 to Rs 10 and he has enough customers to make a good living carting his icecreams across two or three villages within a five-km radius.

There was a time not that long ago when the vast majority in rural Bengal harvested just one rain-fed crop a year, could afford barely one meal a day. But as we drive through miles of lush green countryside—interspersed every few minutes by marketplaces laden with consumer goods—it is clear that much has changed. Bicycles have given way to mopeds and motorcycles; paddy has been supplemented by a plethora of other crops; and village children—much like their city brethren— manage to eat their icecream and have it too.

The transformation of rural Bengal during the last three decades of Left Front rule and the overwhelming role played by the CPI(M) in this process is the main reason that party leaders down the line are confident of a seventh successive victory. But both rural prosperity and the CPI(M)’s preponderance in the countryside could also, paradoxically, prove problematic for the party. ‘‘Do not think,’’ says a CPI(M) veteran in Kolkata, ‘‘that we are depending on the urban middle-class vote to win.’’ The newspapers and TV channels may be going full throttle about ‘‘a pro-Buddha’’ wave thanks to his reform-friendly image, but the backbone for the CPI(M) remains its rural base nurtured with great care.

‘‘The turning point in our rural economy came around 1985,’’ says Sunil Sarkar, Hooghly district strongman. Operation Barga and decentralisation of power through the panchayati system were not an end in itself. The gains made from land reforms were consolidated through an intensive programme of providing irrigation, credit, roads, power and micro-transport. As a result, both agricultural productivity and the rural market grew at a phenomenal pace.

In many parts of the state, three crops are sown every year. ‘‘A man owning five bighas of land was considered a marginal or poor peasant. But with three crops—including cash crops like potato, til, jute—he now effectively owns 15 bighas and has become upper middle class,’’ says Sarkar.

Nirupam Sen, former district secretary of Bardhaman and now state Industries Minister, points out that the West Bengal government’s agricultural initiatives—basing itself on the poor and middle peasantry rather than the rich farmer—enabled the state with its limited land holding to top rice, potato, and vegetable production in the country.

The focus on potatoes, vegetables, fishery, oil seeds and the enhanced production of rice has been the key factor in facilitating a thriving rural market economy. Hooghly district alone has 167 cold storages for potatoes and two ‘‘multi-purpose’’ cold storages—one set up by Mitsubishi—which stocks lobsters, prawns, crabs etc harvested from the wetlands around Sundarbans which are then exported to south-east Asia.

Not only has a subsistence farmer become a cash-rich one through selling his produce in the market, but high agricultural productivity has spawned a tertiary sector—shopkeepers, motorcycle repair shops, middlemen who rent out tractors and electric pumps, rice mill owners and the likes of icecream vendors.

But that has led to its own problems. Although CPI(M) leaders in Jangipur block (under which Patur village falls) insist that the ‘‘rural neo-rich’’—direct beneficiaries of LF rule—continue to remain their supporters, the visible differences between the newly prosperous and the ‘‘khet majoor’’ sections could lead to strains in the future. Unlike other states, where government programmes are seldom associated with the party in power, the CPI(M)’s presence is only too visible. Party members, villagers tell us, have played a key role in implementing the state government’s new initiatives in the last five years—the thrust on rural schools, mid-day meal scheme, health centres and formation of women self-help groups (SHGs).



Rural prosperity is visible, so what should worry CPM? Divide between neo-rich, landless labour—and too much party everywhere

PATUL VILLAGE (HOOGHLY DISTRICT), MAY 5:

But since the ‘‘Party’’ is everywhere, it is also a lot easier for petty grievances against local leaders to build up. Almost every villager we meet in the district is all praise for the ‘‘development’’ that has come their way. But some of them, sotto voce, also say that there is a ‘‘mood for change in the air.’’ Why? Do they think Mamata Banerjee can give them a better government? ‘‘ Oh no, she does not have any programme, we never see her people except at election time,’’ says Asit Das. On the other hand, says his companion, we see too much of the Party. And since no party—even one whose members ‘‘devote 365 days a year among the people’’—can meet everyone’s rising aspirations, elections are an ideal occasion to wreak revenge for a favour not done.

That task, a villager whispers, was made a lot easier by a strict Election Commission this time round.

ashwin said...

FYI - CALCUTTA IS NOT WEST BENGAL...

AND EVEN I DONT KNOW WHAT THE CAPITAL OF KERALA...IS IT TRICHUR...LOL..OR IS IT CONNAUGHT PALACE...

Mind Curry said...

@ ashwin - you are right..i didnt understand a thing you are saying..i almost thought i did though!

this post is on reservation..and the title is "can we afford to keep quiet?" i am sorry if it bothers you, but yeah you could afford to keep quiet :) lol..

ok jokes apart..if there are things that bother you, please do something about it. we, some lesser mortals, are discussing issues that worry us. thats it.

AND EVEN I DONT KNOW WHAT THE CAPITAL OF KERALA...IS IT TRICHUR...LOL..OR IS IT CONNAUGHT PALACE...

no it is not trichur, lol or CP..it is Thiruvananthapuram (Trivandrum)

:)

ashwin said...

pls change the title....(wud appreciate that)

is reservation good for our country!!!

thats makes more sense...

then we can have neutral discussion..

ashwin said...

politics is all about taking all the sections of people along...

it can be ministers, docs, engg, pilots, labourers, theifs, prostitutes, etc etc..

so when u discuss politics..u shud keep everyone in ur mind and then provide solutions..


as the saying goes..i am not good, am not bad...am just living in this world...

Mind Curry said...

@ ashwin - hello again sir :) thank you for your wise thoughts. i think i can afford to keep quiet now about your comments.

and please, stop pasting whole news feeds as comments. your own thoughts summarised are always welcome as long as it makes sense and is relevant to the subject.

ashwin said...

i think the whole blog started from the news feed...am pasting certain news feed...which are relevant to this topic..
so u dont need to censor it..

the whole idea was to give overall view about a subject...about which we only know in parts and bits..

reservation is just not about reservation...it include various other factors which influence it..
hence if you think what i am writing is senseless......i have to say...you want to read, what u want to write...

ashwin said...

m.c

i think...every body is keeping queit....i can afford to sleep.

Mind Curry said...

@ ashwin - true true..good night ashwin.

ashwin said...

i can afford to sleep during day too...m.c

ashwin said...

follow - Jesus Christ - he was someone who
rebelled, an anti-imperialist. He confronted the Roman Empire....
Because who might think that Jesus was a capitalist? No. Judas was the
capitalist, for taking the coins! Christ was a revolutionary. He confronted
the religious hierarchies. He confronted the economic power of the time. He
preferred death in the defense of his humanistic ideals, who fostered
change.... He is our Jesus Christ."[

Memoryking said...

http://www.emotionalzombie.blogspot.com/


My Reservations blog.-It's a bit controversial :)

Memoryking said...

Read your blog.Liked it a lot.Here is mine http://www.emotionalzombie.blogspot.com/
"You say, if a student knows a seat is reserved for him he is not going to work towards it. Ask yourself- If a person knows Education is subsidized for his kids, food items are subsidized for him, is he going to work? Isn’t it harming the Economy? Isn’t the highly subsidized education we avail a classic example of social injustice? "

Ralminov റാല്‍മിനോവ് said...

Really interesting post. But, it can come from only an urban, protected middle class/ upper middle class or rich person. If you happened to live in rural India, known the oppression faced by the backward classes, you couldnot have ridiculed the whole OBCs.
Now I must give my view in this regard.
If there is casteism in a society and there are OBCs/SCs/STs in the society, we need reservation for them. We TALK a lot about improving the primary education ,infrastructure etc. But only in the urban areas we have good schools. We dont prefer to get employed in rural areas. Ask yourself. Are you ready to work in a village? If no is the answer, you have no right to write against reservation. That's the essence of it.

Ralminov റാല്‍മിനോവ് said...

Another point I missed out.
If the rich and elite can have Reservation, why cant these poor OBCs have? First shout to stop these payment seats and then shout against reservation. The analogy made regarding the cricket team better suits the rich, not the OBCs. You pay money and you get a six or wicket.
Otherwise, we have lot of others things as Aswin pointed out. Lets define our priorities better. Ridiculing downtroddens are not a good thing to do.
FYI, I happened to be an NRI born in Rural India.

Anonymous said...

Nice post yar... Please read this too.. Am a student in Gov engg college,Trivandrum known as CET. Top rank students get admission here..ie, rank(1-900), but SC/ST too get it if they r within de rank 36000.These students dont need 2 pay any fees, more over they will get 6000 rupees/annum from Gov & will get all text books free, 1 scientific calculator, drawing board.etc.. BUT they wont pass all de exams .. so they appear for supplementary exams and they dont need 2 pay de fees too..
Another funny thing is de staffs and proffesors..they too reservations.. i dont understand what they are teaching..they too.. we attend their class for attedence. This college & the staffs are well afflicated by AICTE...because we study ourself...... Thx..

voice for poor said...

Talking about reservation I also would like
to mention about HUGE!!!!!!!!! fees
being bought by kerala engineering
colleges like 30,000/- in merit seats
(which was once 15000)and the another
great hike in the MANAGEMENT SEATS FEES which are also now alloted through merit list looking marks in CEE & BOARD EXAM(atleast in colleges in ERNAKULAM )buys more than 75,000/- (which was 1lakh interest free refundable deposit & 40,000/-!!!)"the earlier deposit was OKAY as we would get it back" THIS is a series issue as not
only rich people look for this seats but
also the ones who aspire to become engineers but who could not attend
a good ENTRANCE COACHING due to fees around 10000/-& not able to buy good OBJECTIVE BOOK along with there "SCHOOL FEES" but have scored in school board exams inorder to bring up his family
also could have somehow adjusted with this fees.
A HUMBLE REQUEST,
PLAESE EVERYONE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO OUR Honble EDUCATION MINISTER M.A.BABY

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